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RE: Is the IP layer the right place to support location information
Albert,Chuck, et al
Actually there is a bus stop system here in the UK at our nearest
city(Southampton) which does exactly what you ask: gives the times of the
next bus regardless of whether you have a mobile, laptop, or whatever. When
it's not working it wouldn't be any good logging on to some web site, since
that wouldn't know either.
On the subject of routing in the web using positional information I tend to
agree with the point of view that you don't want the nearest physical site,
or the shortest route, per se, because that doesn't take any account of
traffic congestion, connection speeds, etc. What you probably want is
quickest delivery, but then again not necessarily on a packet by packet
level, because that isn't likely to guarentee quality of service, if you're
interested in that.
So that returns us to the question of what the use of physical location
information really is. It could be for internal Internet communication
reasons like packet routing and quality of service, but only if combined
with some more intelligent use of other information. Alternatively, it
could be for external (user) reasons, such as information location at the
application level (and I would include the emergency 999 services in that as
well). Provided we focus on the class of application, it should be clearer
what to architect to achieve it.
Richard
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C. Wegrzyn [SMTP:wegrzyn@garbagedump.com]
> Sent: 12 January 2000 15:41
> To: Albert Godfrind
> Cc: EXT Sharman,Richard; ext-ip-location@research.nokia.com
> Subject: Re: Is the IP layer the right place to support location
> information
>
> Albert,
>
> Thanks for your reply. In going back to your bus example, we might not
> see
> eye-to-eye on this one. In my thinking if you are walking down a street
> and
> want to know what time the bus will appear, it seems that this could be
> built by a little device in the "bus stop" (or train stop) that announces
> the times. I see little value in having my handheld sending a notification
> back to some "data center" saying "Here I am, what time does the next bus
> appear." In fact in my mind the bus stop is a true "local area" with
> little
> benefit beyond it (except when I'm at my office and want to know what time
> the bus will arrive at State & Wabash in downtown Chicago and I'm in
> Boston).
>
> As for the whole idea of mirror sites, this was done because there was no
> other way to do it (I built out the first "mirror sites" when I started
> distributing GNU software in the early 80s). I always thought that if a
> requesting site could identify where it was, the network could decide the
> closest route (and maybe the best) to get some data. Right now routing in
> the Internet is pretty much a hit-or-miss type of operation. There is no
> knowledge of location involved (RSVP is meant to do some of this, but via
> static routes). Going back to my example of Victoria Secret, what happens
> today is that rather than spreading the load over the whole network, it
> gets
> funneled down to a specific site. (BTW, look at a company like Akaimi -
> I'm
> not sure of the spelling. They are around to overcome this specific lack
> of
> positional routing and load balancing).
>
> I think there is a real need for all devices, not just mobile ones to
> identify their location. Once this information is available, then all
> kinds
> of interesting things happen both to services being offered to devices
> (handhelds, PCs, laptops) and the infrastructure.
>
> Just my thought,
> Chuck Wegrzyn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Albert Godfrind <agodfrin@fr.oracle.com>
> To: C. Wegrzyn <wegrzyn@garbagedump.com>
> Cc: EXT Sharman,Richard <richard.sharman@roke.co.uk>;
> <ext-ip-location@research.nokia.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 10:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Is the IP layer the right place to support location
> information
>
>
> "C. Wegrzyn" wrote:
> >
> > I tend to disagree with the assessment provided here. In fact there are
> very
> > real needs for position location even with non-mobile devices. I doubt
> the
> > example about bus schedules is all that useful - this same thing can be
> done
> > very simply without resorting to anything else: the user can go to a
> website
> > and select the location (since it might very well be somewhere else
> other
> > than the location of the mobile device doing the request).
>
> I see what you mean, Chuck. However, there are several difference
> between a "mobile" and a "static" device. "going to a website" - the
> obvious answer for a static device - does not work for a mobile device.
> The mobile device is used on the street, while walking or just standing
> at a street corner, sitting in a moving vehicule (hopefully not while
> driving it ;-), and the questions asked tend to be of immediate use, and
> concern very local services. Hence the bus example: I want to know the
> time and destination of the next bus that passes the stop I am standing
> at - not the time table of buses in the city I will be visiting tomorrow
> (for which the "website" approach is OK). In addition, mobile devices
> have limited capabilities in terms or user interface (small screen,
> small keypad or touchpad) and are used in uncomfortable conditions, so
> require an underlying infrastructure that is able to filter, select and
> organize available services to minimize the interaction.
>
> But then again, those considerations are not too relevant for the
> subject at hand, I realize.
>
> > The example I think as most useful has to do with hosting content.
> Right now
> > if I go to www.microsoft.com, I tend to traverse the entire network
> until
> I
> > end up in Redmond. Now image a situation like Disney or MSNBC or maybe
> even
> > the Victoria Secret show - the entire network clogs up with traffic to a
> set
> > of clustered machines. If we have positioning information in the system,
> in
> > other words I am at a machine in Boston, I can construct a DNS
> environment
> > that could factor in the location and identify a machine that can stream
> the
> > content to me, one that is closer. Of course this means that MS or
> Victoria
> > Secret might have to have multiple machines around the world, and stream
> > content (or maintain them in real-time), but the end result is that the
> > network load is more evenly distributed.
>
> Here again, I have to take exception. The efficiency of the network -
> the bandwith effectively available between two end-points (the Microsoft
> site and your own machine) has nothing or very little to do with
> geographical location and all to do with the topology of the network,
> specifically the path taken by the packets to travel between the
> end-points.
>
> A case in point: I am based in France. Like everyone, I download stuff
> from public internet sites. Many sites let you choose a mirror to
> download from. In almost all occasions, it is faster for me to pick US
> sites rather that a mirror site that could be thought of as local -
> geographically closer. This is because the topology of our internal
> corporate network combined with that of the internet is such that for
> the most US sites are closer in terms of packet travel time, than
> geographically closer systems ...
>
>
> > Take it for what it is worth...
> > Chuck Wegrzyn
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: EXT Albert Godfrind <agodfrin@fr.oracle.com>
> > To: EXT Sharman,Richard <richard.sharman@roke.co.uk>
> > Cc: <ext-ip-location@research.nokia.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 3:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: Is the IP layer the right place to support location
> information
> >
> > Sharman,Richard wrote:
> >
> > > Also, I agree that the requirement itself hasn't been totally
> > articulated.
> > > The evidence of the archive on this discussion group is ambiguous. On
> the
> > > one hand it would be nice to have a few specific examples of services
> with
> > a
> > > compelling commercial justification, from which some generic
> capability
> > > requirement could be extracted. Of course, if the business case is too
> > > compelling it could lead to some short term, proprietary solutions
> which
> > > might not be best in the long run. Again, this needs amplification.
> >
> > I don't know that there is a definite need for locating devices
> > generally, but there sure is a business opportunity for providing
> > location-dependent services to mobile devices. Note however the specific
> > environment:
> >
> > - this opportunity concerns MOBILE devices, i.e. today generally GSM
> > phones, preferably WAP-enabled, and soon more complex devices (palmtops,
> > etc). That topic is already being covered by the WAP and W3C consortia.
> > Note that a joint workshop in february is going to cover those issues
> > (see http://www.w3.org/Mobile/posdep-workshop).
> >
> > - this opportunity concerns the delivery of information or the access to
> > services that are dependent on the current position of the mobile
> > device. For instance, the scheduled time for a bus to pass next at the
> > nearest bus stop, or the nearest hotel with rooms available in my price
> > range, etc.
> >
> > Adding a location capture/transport capability into the IP protocol
> > stack would enable those services on a more general basis. However, the
> > vast majority of IP devices today are static - i.e. they do not move:
> > they sit on a desk somewhere. [Of course, the laptops are "mobile" in a
> > way - but not really so when you compare them with a GSM phone. Plus
> > laptops only connect to the network today when they are stable - i.e. in
> > some office or home or hotel room or other well-known fairly static
> > location.]
> >
> > I doubt that the opportunity for providing location-dependent services
> > or information to static devices exists. After all, you know where you
> > are. If you need to order something from some web service (say a book),
> > you just supply the delivery address yourself manually. Or the supplier
> > already knowe your delivery address because he holds it on file ... Why
> > would it depend on your physical location ? As for location for
> > emergency services, I personally would not want to depend on my laptop
> > or workstation to direct help to me ...
> >
> > This is different for mobile devices, where you are out on the street
> > somewhere, possibly don't know where you are, and are moving (walking,
> > in a car, on a train, etc).
> >
> > The situation may well change in the future if we move in the direction
> > of IP being THE ubiquitous transport for EVERYTHING (i.e. each and every
> > device has an IP address). Location information at the IP level then
> > becomes more meaningful - but again under the assumption that devices
> > are mobile. Even if my fridge has an IP address, I still know where it
> > is. On the other hand, if my TV remote control does have an IP address
> > and includes a device that is able to advertise its location, then that
> > would help in finding the damn thing under the sofa ;-)
> >
> > /albert
> > --
> > Albert Godfrind Oracle Data Server Division
> > Oracle Corporation Multimedia and GeoSpatial Technologies
> > C.I.C.A Email: agodfrin@fr.oracle.com
> > 2229 Route des Crêtes Phone: +33/4/92.94.21.37
> > 06560 Sophia-Antipolis Mobile: +33/6/09.97.27.23
> > France FAX: +33/4/92.94.21.45
> > http://www.oracle.com
>
> --
> Albert Godfrind Oracle Data Server Division
> Oracle Corporation Multimedia and GeoSpatial Technologies
> C.I.C.A Email: agodfrin@fr.oracle.com
> 2229 Route des Crêtes Phone: +33/4/92.94.21.37
> 06560 Sophia-Antipolis Mobile: +33/6/09.97.27.23
> France FAX: +33/4/92.94.21.45
> http://www.oracle.com